Debate of the Day: Anita Sarkesian’s Damsel in Distress Part Two
So far I’ve been enjoying Anita Sarkesian’s Tropes vs. Women in Video Games series almost as much as I’ve enjoyed watching trolls’ heads explode from the mere fact that it exists. This new video, for example, was taken off YouTube for repeated (false) Terms of Service violations mere hours after it aired. And of course, dislikes and comments are closed because of the sheer volume of shit that pours into these videos that no one should witness.
Rather, I think we can debate the points of the video here instead. The first installment covered the history of why damsels in distress populated old video games (namely, everything Nintendo has made during its lifetime), and why it’s so ingrained in our culture. This video shows that though things have improved, it hasn’t gone away in modern games.
I think she makes a number of good points in this video. One is that the writers of these games are often NOT doing this on purpose. They perpetuate these plots simply because A) they were raised reading stories like this or B) it’s just an easy way to make a revenge plot when your wife/daughter is kidnapped/killed. I also think it’s a good point when she mentions that since violence is the ONLY type of gameplay in these games, it’s why we see a lot of sequences like guys beating the shit out of or “mercy killing” the women they try to save. The medium is forcing itself into these types of scenarios because violence is the only real form of expression in many games.
Anyway, I’m curious to hear your thoughts about this video, particularly Nick Verboon’s, so get on those comments!
Do I have to? My usual MO is that if I didn’t care for the first one, I don’t keep coming back just for something to bellyache about. But then again, I suppose it’ll be interesting to see what she has to say about games that aren’t 30 years old. So for you, man, I’ll check it out.
And for the record, my main issue isn’t so much that she’s pointing out these tropes, which clearly do exist. It’s the immensely unethical and borderline fraudulent approach she took to profit off of other people’s feminist insecurities. If you collected $100,000 to make a documentary, you should put that money into the film instead of delivering videos that clearly cost nothing more than a few hours of your time. I’ll be back with thoughts on the vid once I’ve seen it.
I can’t wait for some MRA person to come in here and link thunderfoots video as if it is a compelling rebuttal, and not a object lesson on how to participate in logical fallacies.
Ok, I guess I’ll have to watch the video but is that Empress Jessamine I see up there? How does Dishonored get lumped into the “bad” category when it comes to feminism?? I mean, yes, Corvo wants revenge for her death but the game a) presents Jessamine as a strong and well-respected character and b) allows you to complete the entire, I repeat, ENTIRE whole game without killing a single, SOLITARY soul, you can even spare Jessamine’s killer. Emily is also portrayed as a wise-beyond-her years girl.
I mean, yes, certain story-telling tropes are overused but that is hardly a problem unique to video games. Books, comics, movies, every form of entertainment suffers from that. The refreshing, new, and imaginative take is a rare thing, not an everyday occurrence. The minute it comes along, it will get turned into its own trope. I mean, Lord of the Rings was pretty special in its day, it has now spawned a whole slew of material aping it. On and on the wheel turns.
Alright, I’ll stop there because I haven’t watched the video. -_-
@J. — You should really watch the video first. Furthermore, the fact that storytelling tropes get overused is a) not a good excuse for anything and b) not inherently a reason to engage in demeaning portrayals of women as an industry standard. Lord of the Rings has nothing to do with this conversation, IMO.
Anyway…
The one thing I truly take exception to is the notion that a man’s failure to protect women and children results in a “loss of masculinity.” While you can make that argument, I find it to be a gross oversimplification. Not a huge part of this video, though, so I’ll leave it there.
The montage of women being shot in the face made me a little ill after a while. Yeah, I think we can call that a problem (not one exclusive to video games, btw) (well, this specific manifestation may be, but there’s a lot of thoughtless rape scenes in narrative media as a whole).
Anyway, something that should be brought to the forefront of this argument more than I think it is, is the role played by lazy, shitty storytelling. Video games are full of it, and the usage of women as plot objects partially stems from that.
Essentially, what I see a lot in games is the use of plot and character as mechanical constructs used to justify a gaming mechanic or situation. She alludes to this in the video. It seems the thought process goes, “We have an interesting/cool/sellable mechanic; let’s find the easiest, clearest way to justify it and get on with it.”
Unfortunately, as she also points out, the most prolific (by far) mechanic is violence. Given that violence is an inherently extreme act, it requires more and more extreme justifications to enact it, in a narrative sense. And this is further mixed with the typical role of mainstream video games as male power fantasy (which they obviously are for the most part). Thus, a lot of women get shot in the face.
Which sucks, and is demeaning, I’ll agree. But I think it’s a systemic issue with one foot in immature social outlooks and another firmly in immature, crappy storytelling sensibilities. Until game developers start treating their characters as actual people, and their stories as actual stories, I don’t think the regressive attitudes can really go away.
Good story is a motive unto itself, not a mechanical pathway trod to get to the grandest spectacle imaginable. I mean, the two aren’t mutually exclusive, but they do get in each others’ way a lot.
I like the video, though. Mostly smart; a little condescending, but I can live with that. I don’t know or really care about its backstory.
I generally agree with her assessment, though I have a potential issue with her understanding of the tropes in that I’m not sure rescuing a child, male or female, falls into the damsel in distress category, because a) the child-adult relationship is by its very nature asymmetric and b) I would argue that one’s physiological and emotional attachment to one’s child can be similarly but fundamentally different from one’s attachment to a significant other.
This one was so much better than the first one, she seems to understand (at least a little) that these tropes are designed to evoke masculine ideals in men. I do agree that the “dead women” as revenge fuel is a bit unsettling when it is used so much. The thing is, I could go point by point agreeing and disagreeing with her conclusions, but most of her issues can be explained away by the simple realization, that these tropes are designed for male sensibilities. So a great deal of gender based issues, are just an unintentional side effect of not being the intended demographic.
And to Ms. Sarkeesian I ask, please stop acting as if you speak for all women. I am quite sure that there are women, gamers or otherwise who understand that the differences between men and women’s sensibilities are distinctive, but neither side is right or wrong.
I actually did not know that Gail Simone coined the “woman in refrigerator” phrase. Thanks to Ms. Sarkeesian for that one. This vid was better than the last one since complaining about the plot of Donkey Kong being misogynistic is like saying Pac-Man is disrespectful to the dead, but it’s still three times longer than it needed to be and re-iterates the same points unnecessarily again and again. Kind of like game developers do with these tropes.
Again, she’s not wrong in the facts she presents, but in her inferences drawn from those facts. At one point she claims that playing games won’t make you magically sexist since it’s clearly not a cause and effect relationship, and then turns around in the very next line and claims that they cultivate sexist cultural attitudes and opinions. So basically she’s just disputing the existence of magic, then? Political manipulation tropes are also a thing, and saying something simple, true, and agreeable like that to put critics at ease and then rephrasing it in a more sophisticated manner to contradict what you just stated gets them to feel smart for agreeing with you. I’m actually impressed. That’s Clinton-level audience manipulation, and very well done. But I don’t condone it.
The trope is more lazy writing than anything. We’ve got thousands of games out there and damsels in distress are, as Sarkeesian says, a cheap and easy way to get the gamer on the protagonists’ side. Just like all of the cop movies where the hero’s best friend/partner is murdered one day away from retirement or something like that. It’s not a political statement, it’s just an excuse to blow some shit up.
That said, she is 100% correct in that ladies deserve better representation. I’m very much with her on that. I love to see the roles reversed and I love a kickass heroine. But the only way that’s going to happen is if, rather than sitting back and complaining about it, someone does something about it. I’d say Sarkeesian has more than enough money in her pocket to finance some indie games. Her time and knowledge would be much better spent breaking these tropes rather than making videos consisting mostly of listing examples of them.
I’ve got no attachment whatsoever to rescuing damsels in distress or killing my vidya waifus. I actually loved being rescued by Elizabeth’s timely supplies in Bioshock Infinite and that scene where she asked if you are afraid of God and you respond “I’m afraid of you” gave me goosebumps. I think that elevating the best examples of women in games is superior to listing past examples of poor representation. If you can’t do it yourself, at least show developers how it’s done as an alternative.
@Nick
I think she’s essentially saying that playing one (or even multiple) games that trade in violence, sexism, etc. won’t suddenly change a person’s worldview. Rather, that if their worldview primarily includes media that repeatedly reinforce a certain attitude, then that attitude may be something that is resisted less and less.
Sort of like how walking through a field won’t kill the grass, but enough people walking through often enough results in a well-trod path. Or, how the problems aren’t any specific game, but the attitudes of the industry (and its audience) as a whole.
@Carmelo
Are you saying this as an excuse or an explanation? Pandering to a demographic’s base urges isn’t an excuse, and IMO it’s something that needs to be broken down a lot to be broken down. The twitter-length version of this video isn’t nearly as effective.
Also, I’m a twenty-something white male (i.e., the target demographic), and a lot of this stuff isn’t in my sensibilities at all.
I’ve always thought she is doing this as a business. A way to make money, that simple. Does she care about what she is actually saying? Is she just stirring the pot?
Games are for gamers. Don’t like it? Don’t play it.
@David R
I actually agree with a good size portion of Ms Sarkeesians points. Some of the things in the games she lists are to harsh. But her entire point in creating this series is to shine a light on what she believes to be tropes that disrespect women. I simply theorize that what she calls sexism is in fact male gender targeted.
So many men these days have been brow beaten into thinking, whenever a women cries “sexism” we should just apologize and change whatever we are doing. I disagree with that behavior. Sometimes things are sexist, but a lot of the times they aren’t. And a man shouldn’t have to be made to feel guilty because he likes something, that a women doesn’t.
“There are these two young fish swimming along, and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says, “Morning, boys, how’s the water?” And the two young fish swim on for a bit, and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes, “What the hell is water?”
It really is all too easy not to see how the trend of such tropes (and yes, it’s in not just games but novels, movies, and everywhere–but that just reinforces the point) can have on a culture. It becomes almost impossible to see how it can shift or perpetuate one’s attitude.
The whole problem with coming from a privileged state is that it’s really hard to see that it’s how things are; the instinct is to be defensive an nitpick problems or shift the conversation.
It doesn’t always have to be a “political statement” or purposely done to be a problem. Indeed, it’s the fact that they are what is chosen by default that is the problem. Whether it’s lazy writing or even the best fit for a particular game, the whole problem with such tropes is that they become understood as what is normal and right.
Anyway, thanks for posting the link; it was a good watch.
Paul you slippin nigga.
This bitch be spouting redundant bullshit and fallacies.
Draugr you needa trim yo vagina cuz.
thanks for featuring this womans work, I really enjoy her take on these matters and I love that you’ve opened up the comments here as your readership tends to be a LOT less of a cess-pool than youtube commenters.
For the detracters: many of you are speaking from a perspective of having never had your kind objectified and marginalized- and that is her point. as men we enjoy the benefits of our culture without much of its drawbacks, which is in stark contrast to the lives of many women experience.
it’s easy to call up exceptions and examples to the contrary, but the fact of the matter is that this is a negative element in our culture that needs to be addressed for us to all benefit.
She’s “messing with” small minded peoples perception of reality and they hate it; the backlash being so severe that she has to disable comment and then people attack her by using youtubes auto-take-down feature is proof enough that this is a serious matter worthy of all of our attention as it is a direct reflection of our culture as a whole.
I’m not saying anyone should feel guilty for being who they are (much as many women are made to feel just for leading their lives outside the “norm” of gender roles).
we are a capable and creative culture, someone turning a mirror to the darker aspects will just make us more capable of avoiding this in the future, She’s doing the right thing- profit or not- this is a good deed.
You’d think with the amount of money she raised she could buy a new fuckin shirt…
I nothing these videos. I was initially excited/intrigued but after the first one where she literally spent 20 minutes making a point that everyone pretty much knows i stopped caring…yes sexism exists in video games and yes you’ve showed it happening a lot whats your point? It’s like jumping up in a movie whenever a black character does something stereotypical and screaming ‘THAT’S RACIST’
@Carmelo
Don’t you think its sexist to target games solely at men? Don’t you think women want to play video games that appeal to them? I agree that this is why we get these tropes in games, but there are plenty of female gamers out there. It’s also interesting that this is apparently the only way a game can appeal to men, surely there are only scenarios that would get you interested in playing.
@Luke
I agree that rescuing a child is a different issue and it is better justification for revenge, a parent certainly would feel guilty for allowing their child to be in danger. I do however have an issue with the child almost always being a daughter, why is it never a son?
@Nick
It would be great if Sarkesian would do something a little more constructive with her time and effort. As much as her videos do include many good points, I agree that its not the best way to change things with respect to video games.
Thanks for posting this, I enjoyed both of the videos. I was at first a little skeptical, having not played over 90% of the games listed, but the sheer number of examples shows this trope is well and truly overused. Not to mention used lazily and without thought.
@ Luke Good point about the difference between Children and women. I thought of a film I quite enjoyed, ‘Taken’ or as I like to think of it as ‘Daddy revenge fantasy’. It is quite clear in Western society that Fathers are much more protective of their daughters than their sons, which is probably better than the traditional form of being protective about their daughter’s honour. I think coolest would be to supportive and encouraging rather than protective.
I don’t think there is a “epidemic of violence against women” unless you think the epidemic has been going since at least the start of recorded history. The increase in statistics of these cimes in western societies I believe are a product of people being encouraged, and it becoming more acceptable, to report them. Well done to Sarkesian and others who continue to push for equality. I find it distasteful that there are still so many tools/trolls leaving sexist, hateful comments in response to videos like this.
So, the women getting shot in the face part is bad because… it’s violence against women? Like, that’s some kind of bad trend that violent things can happen to women as well as men? That women are human, mortal, and beauty is not untarnishable?
Kinda runs counter to the point, no?
Also: her thought provoking point about what the damsel scenarios actually represent (a perceived loss of masculinity through failure to perform the socially proscribed role as protector) would have been better made if all of her examples weren’t soldiers, police, or bodyguards who are, in fact, in the profession of protecting people and there is a definite sense of failure if they were “doing their job” and failed to protect their own family in the process (or caused their deaths in a few cases, such as Kratos being manipulated) and even period-piece versions of the same set in times when it was the stated role of the male to be the “lord protector of his house” as WELL as being defender of the realm and all that. Hell, the only example she had in that picture that wasn’t of someone whose real, “I get paid to do this” job was some form of protection was Garcia Hotspur, a stereotypical Latino character (who, culturally are “macho,” misogynistic and controlling of their women, taken to that extreme), the star of an intentional B-movie cheese fest.
In short, Sarkesian bilked $100k from folks to do a documentary, and is instead a talking statistical chart laid over random videogame clips. This is the last of the series I’ll be sitting through, as she really does have nothing to say worth the time investment.
@Alec, while there is a grain of truth in the notion that we don’t see things we’re used to. I also find that this notion is far too often taken to an extreme. It basically becomes an excuse for an individual to accuse others of racism/sexism/homophobia etc for any and every reason. “You’re sexist and you just don’t know it!” goes the refrain. So, despite that grain of truth, I recoil from such reasoning because it far too often just becomes a reason for a person to put themselves up on a pedestal, looking down on others, and judging them. It also becomes a vehicle to dismiss anything a person disagrees with as sexist/racist/homophobic rather then listen thoughtfully and carefully to what the individual is saying.
@Steve, yeah, I’m not comfortable with violence against women. Even when I was doing my “blood running in the streets kill everything high chaos” run in Dishonored, I refused to kill any of the women. That said, the equality crowd needs to figure out what they want. They say they want women to be treated just like men. Okay, then why can’t there be a hit squad of women that get the stuffing beat out of them by Agent 47? I mean, it is exactly how he would treat a hit squad of men that tried to blow him up. Either be for “equality” or don’t be. Double standards are just annoying.
The day Anita actually responds to the already many refutations of her videos and opens the comments of discussion, is when I’m ready to actually take her wanting to have a ‘serious discussion’ about her topic of choice seriously.
Until then she’s nothing more than a mouthpiece for her rhetoric on the internet.
PS.
Spoiler warning would have been fucking nice
@J. Morales: Right there with you on it being uncomfortable. I was a soldier, and I’d witnessed some horrific things over the years, but I would get mildly queasy if my wife cut herself shaving. I grew up with my two brothers in a heavy handed household when it came to discipline, and now find myself with three daughters and wracking my brains to rationalize how to deal with it. There’s definitely a cultural bias we’ve grown up with, but at the same time with regards to “tropes against things”, there are tropes like “Infant Immortality” and “Beauty is never Tarnished” where women and children never suffer on-screen in media, because of that discomfort. It is implied, it’s done as some kind of metaphor, or what have you, because you and I would find zombies chowing down on toddlers nauseating (though we wouldn’t bat an eye at it happening to a male, adult character) and having a woman get her face stoved in by Kratos like Hercules would make us drop the controller in disgust… But, we have your example there of the fetish-nun-hit squad getting taken out by 47, and it’s a shameful, disgusting, “gore porn” moment. Prototype has an entire city being whipped out, but ONE female “extra” getting executed by the jackbooted gestapo is a disgusting act.
Double standards and nonsense, to which Sarkesian gives her own “lip service” reference to near the end of her interminable babbling, to far lesser effect than any of those empowerment moments she poo-pooed at the beginning of the video.
@Charlotte
There are already plenty of games aimed at women. As it stands right know women make up 47% of the game buying market. Ms Sarkeesian failed to highlight that fact. The thing is, most female gamers are casual gamers. Farmville, Sims, Angrybirds, etc. There have also been lots of examples of Hardcore games featuring and/or targeted towards women. Tombraider, Metroid, Portal, Mirrors Edge, Heavenly Sword, etc.
Now even with all that, men are still overwhelming the purchasers and players of hardcore games. So the game makers tailor their product to meet their consumers demand. That isn’t sexist it’s just good business.
@Carmelo
“The thing is, most female gamers are casual gamers.”
Well, that’s certainly stereotyping.
“That isn’t sexist it’s just good business.”
Is there a reason it can’t be both? I agree that the developers are not sitting around saying, “How can we make this game more sexist?” but that’s kind of the point that is being made in the videos. The tropes are so ingrained that not much thought is given to them. I believe she is making the argument that developers and players alike should try to become more aware of these tropes and not just default to them.
At the same time, I think it is unfair to suggest that game companies can’t have successful games unless they pander to the lowest common denominator. There are some incredibly talented and creative people out there making great (profitable!) games that don’t abuse these tropes.
How many times have you had to kill a male comrade in battle? How many times has a friend in a game turned into a mutated monster that asked to be killed. It has more weight when you have to kill someone you care about. We don’t do it cause we love it, we do it casue it’s hard to do. Some poeple miss the point in investing emotional into the game. Shit. Spec Ops the Line was a great point about it not having to be a woman.
Why was my last post removed? Did I say something offensive?
Carmelo, we’re having some issues with the site. I lost a few comments on my article, too.
“In short, Sarkesian bilked $100k from folks to do a documentary, and is instead a talking statistical chart laid over random videogame clips.”
Interesting ad hominem-attack there. I bet you haven’t really criticized gaming studios for setting a high kickstarter goal and achieving it.
Judging by the comments so far, I think Sarkesian is doing an important job, highlighting the common denominator for most games which is the hero and the damsel in distress.
About the “pointing out the obvious” part, it’s always easy in hindsight to see this, but nonetheless its an important observation and compilation.
The thing that kills me about all of the complaints about the money she raised being wasted is that she hasn’t even made the project she raised the money for. It is in progress and she is expanding the scope to suit the funds she has received. Check your facts before acting all high and mighty about the work she does. Her job that she has managed to be successful at is as a critic of popular culture through a feminist lens, it’s how she makes her money. I am seriously tired of all of the sexism deniers out there. Most of these comments are intelligently written, but the automatic defensiveness of all that is male every time the term feminism is uttered screams of ignorance and insecurity. Why not be open to a dialogue that acknowledges social inequities rather than acting like there isn’t a problem just because you haven’t experienced it first hand?
She’s been caught stealing other peoples “lets play” footage from youtube because she doesn’t actually play the games she claims to have researched. So either through ignorance or plain dishonesty she makes arguments based on taking things out of context with her examples. Its been cited in numerous rebuttal videos now. Thunderf00ts http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJeX6F-Q63I rebuttal series is just one amoung many.
His videos about the same issues with feminism and atheism are relevant to this issue in that the same tactic is being used by the same types of people in an effort to silence dissent in the name of feminism. In both cases it comes down to trying to smear opinions they do not like and cannot actually argue with as immoral the same way religions do, and cults do. Scientologists smear people who leave the church as “suppressive people” and try to shield their people from contact, they shun them. This is actually based on fear that those dissenters actually might have a point, and you see this across many extremist religions, and its sad the popular media has not caught on that its happening with so called “feminist” causes like this. The only “insecurity” seen here Katie is on your side, constant disingenuous claims of victimhood, basically professionalizing victimhood in an attempt to silence dissent because you actually fear honest argument is the problem for you. Honest dialog doesn’t happen exactly because of people like anita sarkesian, she hides behind her victimhood/damsel status in order not to have to deal with criticism, after all by default a “victim” is not expected to have to defend themselves.